55 replies to this topic

[tony]

We started to drift away from MPC's thread about C&R FFL with details around building an AR-15. Rather than continuing that discussion in the other thread, I thought putting it into a thread on its own would make the details easier to find. Note, there are other threads from the past which discuss AR-15 build. As I find them, I will edit links to them in this first post. The next post, I will pull out the posts from the C&R Thread, since they serve as a good starting point for this discussion.

Here is HLW's thread on his successful AR-15 Build: http://www.ielmira.c...31-ar-15-build/

Here is a link to Brownell's series of videos which describe most of the information one should review when they are considering this project: http://www.brownells...id=11004/learn/

[tony]

Culled from http://www.ielmira.c...rearms-license/

You don't need a spare, you do need a spare parts kit (do not get the cheapy m16 parts kits, as the bolts will not run reliably in the AR15 platform). Everything as you will soon see is modular, something breaks? Quickly swap it out.

Lowers are lowers are lowers, do not be talked into buying anything fancy. All lowers are simply housings for the trigger control group and have no stressors placed on them. They don't need special reinforcement or material. I had a guy in my unit who carved a lower out of oak, and damned if it didn't run flawlessly.

Cheaper is good.

You don't need a spare, you do need a spare parts kit (do not get the cheapy m16 parts kits, as the bolts will not run reliably in the AR15 platform). Everything as you will soon see is modular, something breaks? Quickly swap it out.

A spring kit, maybe an extra bolt, and for really funky, SHTF storage, a gas tube.

The thing is an M4 is an AR15. Technically, an M4 is a 16 inch barrel, with a collapsible stock, very maneuverable and great for CQB. An AR-15 is a rifle manufactured by Colt, it has a 20 inch barrel and an A2 stock. An M4 is also a select fire weapon, allowing single shot and 3rd bursts (which we won't legally see here in NY state, ever). An M4 also has a barrel cut for an M203 grenade launcher. And again, not something you will see in NY State, ever.

There are any number of Ar15 variants out there not manufactured by colt, just as there are any number of tissue variants not manufactured by kleenex.

When it comes down to it, I call almost anything with a 16 inch barrel an M4 and anything with a longer barrel and AR15. I prefer M4's, I do not see any loss of utility in range over the loner barrel AR clones and the utility of a short barrel is very important in my usage.

Great info Bill, I've been getting very confused with all of the options out there. Every time I start down this path I quickly find myself retreating with all of the choices, and having no real way to make a decision among those choices.

I have this article by William L. Fulks bookmarked. But, I didn't trust it since it appears he is purchasing the lowest cost stripped lower receiver he can find. I figured since this is the part which needs to be purchased through an FFL and registered, it was the place not to skimp. Your comments shed light on this as being an unfounded worry.

So, how do these two options sound?

Stripped Lower Receiver from Brownell's

Rifle Kit from Del-Ton, Inc. , specifically the Mid-Length Rifle Kit.

It still goes back to the advantages of doing a build versus buying a complete rifle. Cost does not appear to be deciding factor. Custom building a gun means nothing to someone like me who doesn't understand the choices.

The advantage of building it is that you learn how all the parts interact. It is a simple build, shouldn't take you longer than an hour for your first one. But you do get to learn how each part fits into the grand scheme of things, meaning, if there is a failure at some point, you will have the knowledge to know where to look.

Now, the only thing you need to worry about in any receiver is that the holes line up as you expect them to, namely the pins for the trigger group, you may find some slop in your upper to lower mating, and they sell all sorts of devices to take that play out, but in reality they make no difference to performance or accuracy. Your optic is inline with your upper receiver and barrel, having the lower move a thousands of a mm when you depress the trigger will not affect that at all.

With the pricing of the Brownells lower, you have to factor in $20.00 to $35.00 more for the FFL transfer fee, as it will have to be sent to a registered FFL and transferred out to you fromt hem. They get paid for doing that. (That of course actually applies to all serial numbered items, be they stripped lowers or full built weapons.)

I would add to that stock lower:

Trigger Guard As I do a lot of shooting with some sort of glove on, and this does give you a bit more clearance, be they warm weather gloves or cold weather gloves. (There is a trigger guard in every lower parts kit, but it is a straight trigger guard, and it does cramp up your trigger work with gloves on).

GasBuster Charging handle (an upper receiver part), I have broken a butt load of charging handles in my time and it was the one part I always looked for an improvement in, I have run the gas buster for about 5 years now and never broke one. So I toss one into every upper I use. It also DOES keep exhaust gas from spitting into your eyes, but unless you are shooting bursts or FA, you probably won't notice that. I use them strictly for the enhanced beefiness and the fact that while wearing gloves, you get more positive control of the charging handle. Note: the only downside to this and all charging handles is that they are NOT ambidextrous. If you take damage to your dominant side and need to transition to your alternate grip, you must have trained extensively with operating the charging handle. This charging handle gives you a larger surface area for releasing the contact point, which is better for this, but still not optimal. Transition drills should be part of your daily exercise.

When you buy a kit to put together, make sure that you are not getting an M16 kit, as the bolt carrier is different in design, it may or may not work 100% in your setup, (there is a piece of metal removed on the tail end of an M16 bolt carrier, to clear the autosear).

And again, titanium nothing, titanium is very light and will increase lock time by 100/ths of a second, but, in real life it won't make a difference what your lock time is, and the fact that titanium fractures and will fracture under load from an AR setup means it is unacceptable to be used.

You do not need a pigtail gas tube, unless you are shooting full auto, keep the gas tube simple, and keep it stock.

If you have the choice, do not get an M16 style carry handle upper, flat top is preferable, you can always buy a bolt on carry handle, but you would prefer your optics to be closer to the barrel than farther away, it also gives you more options for your BUIS's.

You will eventually go to a panel system for your forward grips, no need to do it off the bat, as they will run you about $400.00 for a decent setup, but keep them in mind when you decide to add a weapons light / forward grip or the like.

[Chuck]

HLW just did this a while back and is getting ready to order a bunch of lowers for another build . I have committed to getting 2 through him . he gets a deal on the FFL transfer fees buy ordering 4 or 5 at a time ,every little bit helps !
I think he is looking at ordering in mid july .

[tony]

Cool. Provide details as you go forward with your build. I am especially interested in your thought process as you choose the various options, particularly those which impact performance. And, of course, don't be shy about how you balance costs with performance and cosmetics.

[tony]

Starting with the lower receiver: When looking at a stripped receiver, they really are nothing more than a housing for the trigger group, allowing an access port to slip a magazine into, and provides connection points for the stock and the upper receiver. Despite seeing a wide variety of costs from about $80 on up to around $200, other then cosmetic fit and finish in areas such as how well machining and forging marks are dealt with, and the coating, there really isn't much here to base a decision on what supplier to purchase from. I have seen one comment where you pick the supplier that has a logo you like.

No matter what though, this is the part which has the serial number for registration and needs to be purchased from or shipped to an FFL dealer in your home state.

[Bill]

All true Tony. I prefer Rock River Arms, but only because my lucky rifle was carrying that lower when it became my lucky rifle. Some people swear by Colt, in the end, it makes no differences, they all perform identically.

[tony]

Even something as basic as this item it gets confusing really fast. For the novice, it is hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Here is a "sales pitch" from one supplier of a lower receiver which has some interesting aspects of what goes into a receiver. (They also sell a lot of other interesting gear)
http://www.tacticali...ver-p-1080.html

One of the lowest cost receivers out there:
http://palmettostate...ar15-lower.html

Video review of three different lowers:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.c...ed/uvrSAf4tTVs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Bill]

The sales pitch was just that.

Not a thing that they listed as a feature made any difference.

CNC Machined? Yeah, the metal had to get formed some how.

7075 T6 alloy? It can be made out of wood, it doesn't matter.

Magwell wire cut? Insert and remove your magazine a couple of hundred times and it is going to be a smooth fit no matter what.

Laser engraved markings? I don't think I looked at the markings on my weapon in 15 years, flick the safety off to shoot, on when not shooting, it is habit, who cares what the markings are?

How they ship something doesn't factor for me.

Multi-Caliber marked would be important if we lived in California. We don't, it doesn't matter.

Upper receiver tensioning screw? To save us from slop? Uh, no thanks. Non-standard and a point of stress I don't want to have to factor into my shooting.

Rear Pin capture screw, to save a bit of effort in 30 seconds of an initial install, and again, non standard kit on a weapon? LOL.

Hand finished? Who cares how it looks?

What you need is a lower that will have matching pin holes for your trigger group and for the mate points to the upper. There are niceties that I prefer on my weapons, winter trigger guard, gas buster charging handle. I don't want anything that 'adds' features, as they break my manual of arms, if I have to do something by muscle memory, it will add a layer of complexity that I do not want in times of stress.

You fight like you train, train in the basics until you don't have to think, you just do.

[Bill]

I am sitting here thinking of the 'why' of the sales presentation and I realize that it must be because guys are 'fetishizing' their weapon. Thinking they can replace time for upgrades. It is a tool, like a hammer, you buy the right hammer for the job you are doing, you are hammering 10 penny nails all day in putting together house frames, you need a different hammer from the dude making cabinets.

Problem is, you can't buy competence, neither in a hammer or a weapon. Wire cut crap, special markings, hand finishing - all do not change the basic function of your weapon. Nor does it increase your competency with it. Learn the basic weapon, train with it, and you can pick up any one you find and make it run.

Cheaper may not be better, but more expensive is not guaranteeing better either, and it looks like it is adding stuff you don't want on your go-to fighting rifle. Try to stay within milspec as much as you can, they have worked out the bugs of these firearms, why add a couple of unknowns into the mix? Think interchangeability with the people of your tribe/clan/group. Your lower needs to go on any other persons upper, your mags have to run in anything they are jammed into, your manual of arms all ought to be identical.

"Oh, wait, thats Jim-Bobs rifle, he needs to make sure his accu-wedge is firmly placed, otherwise after a few rounds it comes loose and gets stuck in the trigger group, you have to break open the weapon then and fish it out..." Uh, no thanks.

The only place for personalization is in the optics, or lack of same. And then, it is only a matter of convenience, everybody ought to be able to operate the weapon no matter what kind of optic is on the weapon (Or lack of optic). A standardized sight picture, a known impact point for various distance, it doesn't matter what you are using at that point.

Know what I mean?

[tony]

Now that is a 10 out of 10 for a rant. For me, it cleared up all of the smoke surrounding this first choice in a way that your previous "gentle" descriptions did not. There are two basic areas that I find confuse the matter when trying to research on the internet; the sales pitches and the guys out there trying to engage in dick comparison contests. This "rant" would never take place on the gun forums, if it did it would quickly be lost in the noise.

This opening to the site AR15.com shows how confused the world of "AR15" is:

Quality, integrity, and value. These words are important to us when we consider making any kind of purchase or investment. In an AR, the most important piece is the lower receiver, and this piece alone constitutes a firearm in the eyes of the law.


This is why I decided to start the discussion on here, for a practical perspective.

[Chuck]

I find the whole machining discussion in these sales pitches quite laughable A machine tool is only as good as the operator . All the machining processes discussed don't nessecarially make a better part ,but do make the part faster.
A skilled machinist can make a quality part on non cnc machine tools and a shitty operator can make fucked up parts on the most expensive state of the art machine tools

[Bill]

There are people who are enthusiasts, and then their are operators (not even in the sense of HSLD-ish-ness), I am a carpenter, I have preference to my own tools, but I can pick up someone else's tools and do the job I am hired to do. I don't need the latest and the greatest of the Hammer world, I need the hammer that is called for by the job. I am sure there are websites geared towards the guys who really dig their hammers, they go over hammer specs, feel, how they can make the hammer look more hammer-y. They may never use that hammer to build a house with, they may never take their most prized hammers out of their toolbox, ever, except to lovingly show around to other hammer enthusiasts. More power to them and let them go with gods grace. My Hammer is pretty rough looking, it has scratches and some dents and has had duct tape wrapped around it at various times, it is pretty basic as far as Hammers go. My Hammer has gotten lots of use and has built quite a number of houses.

I guess it is a different mind set.

[tony]

Now that we have the lower receiver, the next choice are the three other main groups; trigger, stock/pistol grip, upper receiver/barrel assemby.

Let's look at stocks. Should be simple, right. But, no. We have laws and long list of options

First we have to worry (at least some of us) about the NY assault weapon ban, and collapsible stocks are one of the checklist items in which you can choose any two. Since we will most likely be going with a pistol grip and a flash suppressor, that leaves us with choosing a fixed stock. It appears A2 stocks are fixed stocks. Even among fixed stocks, there are numerous types, such as skeleton.

Now, suppose we are not in NY, or decide to drop the flash suppressor, we now have a choice of stocks.

Looking at Rock River Arms choices, we are confronted with all sorts of TLA's (CAR, ACE, RRA) and other mysterious words (operator vs tactical).
http://www.rockriver...category_id=379

I could use some help in sorting this out.

[Bill]

Ok, if you are going to be using body armor (old style, thick, bulky body armor, as opposed to the new tshirty kind), you will want a collapsible stock. that is the only real reason for one. It draws the weapon in closer to your body, negating the couple of inches you gain wearing the body armor. Collapsible stocks have very little utility value other than that. As you can not really successfully use your butt end of the weapon as a blunt force tool, the collapsible stock sort of eats up any energy you slam into it.

The linked magpul stock is for precision shooting. In reality, all shooting is precision shooting, but you have a wider margin in some situations over others. If you are going to take one shot, you have spent hours setting up that one shot, you have the atmospherics down perfectly, you have rested your body for 4 or 5 minutes, you are waiting for your target to enter your line of fire, you have kept a consistent cheek weld for 30 minutes or so. Then this stock is for that application. For all other situations, it is bulky, gets snagged on crap and is uncomfortable for shooting while running.

A stock allows you to replicate a cheek weld, it allows you to use the rear of the weapon as a blunt force weapon (Butt stroking someone), it allows you to successfully clear a stuck bolt (Butt stroking the ground to clear the jammed round /stuck bolt). A good stock has to allow you to perform these three vital functions. The A2 stock is ideal for this. I prefer a skeletonized stock, I run the ACE stock (Non entry model, it is an A2 length). It is lighter weight allows a good butt stroke and stands up to stuck bolt clearing extremely well. It has the added benefit of being less of a drag in either water or air entries as there is less of a wing like shape to it.

All entry stocks are going to be shorter than a normal A2 stock, you will not need that unless you are using body armor.

Stocks need to stand up to serious pounding, both in cracking someones head open, or using the slam clear method to clear a stuck bolt.

I would recommend a stock A2 stock, and learn how to mount the weapon properly using that, or the ACE stock, which I have been partial to since they were being designed.

Any of the stocks which tout 'cheek weld' modifications, unless you are shooting a 20 inch barrel, at 600+ yard targets is unnecessary and more of a PITA than anything else.

Any stock which touts as entry is going to be shorter than normal, meaning you won't mount the weapon properly without body armor.

I am happy to lend you my AR for you to try the ACE stock if you want to give it a shot.

[tony]

Once again, excellent clear descriptions which I can use to sort this stuff out. I didn't mean to link a specific stock, but to the stock selection page. http://www.rockriver...category_ID=204

You have hit virtually all of the questions I have about that wide choice. Thanks again!!!

[Bill]

Keep the questions coming Tony, we will sort it all out.

[hlw]

If anyone wants I can show them the AR I just built. I made several decisions based on NY Law (Muzzle Break, Mags and Stock).

As for receivers, as long as they are within the spec, just pick one. I know some places that will give you customized serial numbers and graphics (close to 200 bucks a shot , Sundevil in AZ). I have also seen them for around 60 bucks. I chose my S&W receiver based on a recommendation from a friend of mine (he has built several 100 AR's over the years).

HLW

[tony]

HLW, I was hoping you would step in here. Among all of the options what did you choose, and why?

[Bigfoot]

I like this forum, but this thread especially. I have two striped lowers in the safe just awaiting the knowledge, time, and tools required for assembly.

anyone have a line on some good pre ban mags? And what should I expect to pay? Thanks in advance.

The hammer analogy was a good one


Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

[Bill]

Hey BigFoot, glad you showed up!

Preban mags? There are millions of them floating around, don;t spend more than $10 a pop for them, and make sure the feed lips are in good condition. Last I checked, not a single person has ever been arrested, let alone convicted for having post-ban mags. So it is not something I would lose a ton of sleep over, but thats me, every body has their own level of comfort in being a bad boy.

I shoot with a bunch of LEO's, and none of them even know what a pre-ban configuration is.