107 replies to this topic

[Sweet Sensations]

I am curious, and maybe Bill can post this as a survey. How much of an increase in taxes would each of us be willing make, to help solve the problem, above 2.61%?

[tony]

Our system is broke, we don't do business like a business should.

I agree.

No business I know would sign a generous union contract and then complain that the unions won't violate the trems of the contract. Business that want to be successful negotiate concessions into new contracts, ensuring the contracts support the financial realities for the duration of the contract.

The teacher contract expires in June. It is not up to the teachers union to give anything away, it is up to the the administration to negotiate a new contract. Pay freezes and elimination of all stipends are obvious requirements for all contracts that come up for renewal, at least until the financial situation stabilizes.

[Anna Lisa]

Pay freezes across the board (top to bottom) should be an absolute must, no exceptions. Community members need to (or should have) gotten together and decided how much they are willing to kick in to help the problem (tax increase.)

[Bill]

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I am curious, and maybe Bill can post this as a survey. How much of an increase in taxes would each of us be willing make, to help solve the problem, above 2.61%?<br />

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Done.

My problem is, that like all bureaucracies, it is fundamentally broken from bloat, mismanagement and waste. No amount of money, not 5000% more from each tax payer will fix the underlying fundamentals which are broken.

We have already seen that throwing money at the problem does not fix it, so I am unsure of why anyone thinks that throwing even more money at it will help in any way what so ever. We need a sea change in thinking as to education, instead of a larger shovel to feed the money into the school districts furnaces.

But, YMMV, and that is cool.

[Bill]

Pay freezes across the board (top to bottom) should be an absolute must, no exceptions. Community members need to (or should have) gotten together and decided how much they are willing to kick in to help the problem (tax increase.)

Zero. More money is not the solution.

[Anna Lisa]

Bill, the more I think about the more I agree about the money thing. It will just get eaten up and they will still have a huge budget problem at the expense of those paying school taxes. THis is not the tax payers doing.

[Sweet Sensations]

I agree with you guys too. My thought is this. I would be willing to pay more IF the pay is froze, the stipends are cut or renegotiated as well, and the business gets an overhaul. The taxpayers don't want to be like Corning Inc...a bandaid. We want a better education, and will pay for it, but we need change first.

Also, I think that this survey should be brought to a meeting, share with the board what the community thinks, in paper form, the soap box approach is not working, they know it sucks, let's give them a real feel they can carry with them. What do you think?

Edited by Sweet Sensations, 05 April 2012 - 09:06 AM.

[Bill]

I agree with you guys too. My thought is this. I would be willing to pay more IF the pay is froze, the stipends are cut or renegotiated as well, and the business gets an overhaul. The taxpayers don't want to be like Corning Inc...a bandaid. We want a better education, and will pay for it, but we need change first.

I want a fundamental shift in education, which is a pipe dream. What we have now is a factory based approach to educating children. That used to work, really well. Circumstances have changed and the education system hasn't. Scrap it and start over.

[felixthecat]

Zero. More money is not the solution.

100% correct.Contracts expire in June?Pay freezes,For every teaching position eliminated so should 1 in admin.No more tenure,25% of health costs to be paid by employee,Adopt the same retirement plan the state,county,and city employees just got{tier6} and if no agreement then go on strike and hire scabs to replace just like Reagan did with the air traffic controllers.It's time to say we have had enough.And if budget is not met than no raises till it is met.But above all no more money.

[Bill]

Last I heard Felixtehcat, I think ECSD is down to 11 administrators?

I could be wrong, but thats what I am remembering from the numerous budget meetings I have been to.

Tehy are going to be laying off 120 some odd teachers. More of a ten to one kinda thing at that point.

[felixthecat]

Has anyone looked into any chance of early buyouts for retirement?shame to lose all that new blood .Those are the ones with all the new fresh ideas and they still have the fire to see the kids get excited to learn.What really gets me is we have a bunch of pretty smart people yet they cannot work with something as simple as keeping within a budget.There is no excuse for what keeps happening in school districs all over.Just simple greed.120 teaching positions and 11 admin? well you can see what they care about.I also don't understand why they have busing in the city? it's not like the kids have far to walk.Hell i can walk across the southside from one side to the other in about 20 minutes.Get some of these couch potatos in better shape.I still think they should clean out the whole admin. office and start again.

[haterh]

With all this talk about eliminating administrators, I wonder ... Do any of you truly know what they do? I do, and they certainly aren't sitting around withe their thumbs up their asses. And the work they do cannt simply be absorbed by teachers.

[Bill]

Declare bankruptcy, toss out the unions at that point, re-interview everyone for a new job, sans union. Problem solved.

[Railfan285]

Bill, your solution would solve the problem. Problem with it is that the school district can not do that. NYS mandated the union system, controls the pension system and on top of it mandates what has to be taught and how. The problem has to be solved in Albany and I don't think that is going to happen.

They created the problem and their solution was to cap tax increases and there is no way on earth that is going to happen with the mandates.

I feel sorry for all involved. I understand the tas payer side intimately. I've never been a teacher, but as a police officer I have seen the employee side. We went from a department of 120 to where they are now (high 60s) while the workload and crime has escalated due to the drug problems of society.

I don't know the answer but a simple brush stroke is not going to happen.

There will need to be giving by all involved: the school board, the administration, the union employees and the taxpayers. Where that magic level is no one knows.

I do know that the Governor wants to countyize the school system. Would that place it under Mr Santulli's direction? If so, he has done well with county government and maybe that would solve some of it.

The state of New York has long tried to keep the school boards out of politics, but I personally think that is where a lot of the solution has to start. Elect a new board by not returning any present member. see what happens

[Chris]

Am I the only one who thinks 40k ( or more ) plus benefits is pretty goddamned good money in an area where the average income is around 30k last I looked ? I had to bust my balls as a paramedic to make that kind of money when I was younger and I sure as hell didnt get weekends, holidays and summers off.

[Chris]

I'm not looking to get into a point by point comparison of professions, and for the record I am no longer a paramedic. But to answer your questions, I worked for a privately owned company. The education requirements were two years of schooling, and then at least an additional two years worth of continuing education by the time I was done. At that time I was working a ton of overtime, 70-80 hours a week on average and I think in my best year I just hit 40K.

Every profession has education requirements, we know that going into it.

You admit yourself the salary you receive is for 8 months out of the year. I know full well those two months off are unpaid, but with a little planning ahead that's a pretty nice deal there. Firemen, police and others in this area only make around 40k and they work the whole year round, weekends, holidays, etc.

I'm not trying to crucify teachers, despite what you might think. Actually at one point I considered becoming one myself. But every time this issue comes up some teachers take on a sort of persecution complex and portray as though any concessions pertaining to salary or benefits would somehow drive them to the poorhouse. My point is that it will not.

[Anna Lisa]

It is not a salary freeze.... in reality it is a salary decrease. It decreases the amount of money that they would make across their entire career.

So say you stay frozen for at least a year... you started on step 7 and got frozen at 45,350 a year... you stay the same for a year... then you get unfrozen and should be on step 9 that year making 46,186 instead you are only on step 8 and making 45,542. (so roughly a 600 dollar difference in salary) This might not be a big deal then but when you put into perspective that at the end of a 15 year step process you are supposed to be making 57,000 and instead you are only making 49,000 that is a bigger deal. You can never make up the steps.

I do not quite understand your logic or maybe it's the process. The way I am looking at it, a pay freeze is just that; freeze your pay for a year, (let's say "step 7" as you mention.) When your pay is unfrozen in a year (or whenever) you should be at the same place you were when you were frozen; "step 7." and yes, I supposed this would affect what you end up on when you retire as your salary was frozen for a year. Many large professional corporations have done this.

And further, forgive me for saying this, but I think it's safe to say that the majority of tax payers/parents, etc. are not concerned about teacher's "step-status" they are concerned with 1. quality education 2. their own pocketbooks. Why should their taxes go up if teachers are not willing to take a pay "step" freeze?